The CIA, Ireland & Human Rights ...the need for a Dáil Inquiry.

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Feb 23, 2007 15:33

Leaving aside the provocative and nonsensical rant by John above [if the KGB really financed the Sticks, the results of that financing could not be said to have produced the required objectives - whatever they may have been - more wasted investment me thinks], the Dail Enquiry proposed by Proinsias is a double-edged sword.

Some comments from the [informative]meeting last night:
On the one hand, based on the extensive set of info that the European Parliament Report has come up with, and the dismissive and fearful response of the Fianna fail administration, if such a Dail Enquiry on the CIA organised kidnapping and torture flights was to be set up, it would be a very useful tool indeed. Domestic NGOs, such as the ICCL and Amnesty, and European witnesses, among others, could contribute a bit of clarity.
On the other hand, however, as Joe and Proinsias both admitted, the likelihood of such an enquiry being agreed by Fianna Fail at the moment is almost nil. They may be able to get some discussion on Private Members time but that's all.

Which leaves us with the big question: Will the Labour Party, officially and from the top, support the call for the use of Shannon by the US military and the CIA to become an election issue and involve the large public? And I do mean the Labour Party and not Labour Youth who have made their position very clear! Will Shannon appear in their Manifesto? Will it become a deal-breaker in any post election talks?

Proinsias' response last night was that he had no objection of the 'Rendition' issue becoming an election issue! Joe, however, and Michael D at an earlier meeting, were less clear. They both argued that they, themselves personally were against the use of Shannon, but they couldn't convincingly respond to the question re:the LABOUR PARTY POLICY. The plain truth there is that the Party, especially its very top, is wavering on the issue and the total absence of any other Labour TDs at last night's meet was such an indication.

Those questions remain....and answers are needed.....any comments?

And, John, please, if you have any meaningful stuff to contribute do it...otherwise attempting to derail the thread is time wasted!!

by John Thu Feb 22, 2007 16:11

How about an enquiry into the role of the KGB in funding the pro-Moscow Official Sinn Fein Party (later known as SF, The Workers Party, later known as The Workers Party, later known as Democratic Left, later known as the Labour Party) back in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Mr. DeRossa should be in a position to give such an enquiry any information it needs.

by Fred Johnston Wed Feb 21, 2007 19:33 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

I have mentioned elsewhere how I 'bumped in' to a CIA man in the old Bewley's in Dublin some years ago. How do I know? He told me. In a chat about this, that, and nothing on the foodline this genial, nondescript American mentioned he worked for Southern Air Transport (look it up). 'We fix small countries,' he quipped. Whether any one believes me is irrelevant. This man's candidness was shocking. By the way, do you know that we now have a PERMANENT US military representative at Shannon? No, we do not run our own country.

by iosaf Mon Feb 19, 2007 21:04

(1) Now as things stand - Prionsais though a president of Labour and a MEP & pretty definitely assured of glowing obituaries someday - will never know the answer to those questions. He knows like we all do that he was bugged. But there is no timed release or declassification of files kept by the state on who decided he was a subversive & and what stage he stopped being one.
We just know that at certain times in our national history - a garda - or a minister of justice - or a civil servant has talked to a journalist & facts have been reported. We call this leaking

(2) Our current minister of justice is very good at leaking. He leaked elements of a classified appraisal of members of the IRA (provisionals) teasing us somewhat that his list (which not even academics may legally expect to read in a hundred years) numbered 1000 names. But Mc Dowell only gave us one - that of a journalist in the process almost ruining his career. Mc Dowell then went on holidays.
If that example doesn't shake your memory then remember the leaking of information on the Afghani hunger strikers in Saint Patrick's cathedral to the media. The scintilating detail that one was believed to have been involved with the Taliban was leaked - the intriguing detail that one was believed to have been a victim of the Taliban was not leaked. In most democracies - such paritisan manipulation of classified information would cause the named director of intelligence to answer questions, such as the quality of Pashtan & Farsi translations on the files of those 2 men. In a proper healthy democracy with little to hide - Someone might even be rapped across the knuckles or resign. Mc Dowell went on holidays.

(3) Within two months of the "1000" names, a former asset of British Intelligence and former member of Sinn Fein and former Stormont figure - Denis Donaldson was killed in Donegal. That day the information flowed from Hain to Adams (by phone) to the family of Donaldson and the world. Odd-
Hain has no jurisdiction over Donegal & Donaldson had been formerly expelled from Sinn Fein. At this point in a normal democracy - someone would have asked "what surveillance or protective measures were taken". Mc Dowell was on holidays.

(4) jargon is wonderful but it can confuse us. Prionsais wants us to discuss "CIA rendition". But if we look back at our 70 year old constitutional history - we may find numerous other incidents of arrest & detention of both Irish & foreign nationals on our soil by foreign governments or their agents. We used to call them "incursions". We at present whether we're a tippy toppy historian or leaving certificate student dis-allowed from investigating any state file. Instead we wait patiently on MI5 to release their stuff so we can guess what was going on in our state. ( a possible revelation - "xxxxxx code name big mickey sighted on holidays in roscommon xxxxxx" )

I suggest to you that De Valera and company really didn't foresee either commercial press & political party collusion in leaks & manipulation of opinion (could we call it subversion of democracy?). I doubt the DeValera could foresee internet surveillance issues. Looks like the Garda couldn't either otherwise they would have been better at preparing paedophile prosecutions. But I really doubt De Valera could predict (and premptively write stuff into our constitution) a situation such as the "war on terror" or "illegal war". After all the United Nations hadn't even begun - so there was no such thing as an "illegal war". DeValera was only concerned with consolidating his regime. You still live for th most part in his regime. The means of containing "subversion" were well known and not to troubled about - till "the Troubles". By which stage everyone good Irish person knew we didn't have a secret service and the only one which intefered with us was the British one. Terrible years passed by and then the IMC began. Not our "indymedia centre" but the Independent monitering commission. They told us the IRA had no guns anymore. Mc Dowell told us they were right. They didn't tell us how many members the IRA had. Wonderful work done. We were all very delighted - but where did the constitutional mechanism to allow the activity of the IMC in Ireland come from?

If there are flaws and loophopes big enough for a carriage and eight in "bunreacht", there are more in the US constitution. Most of the power a president or his presidency exercises is in foreign affairs. At home his budget and program are limited by congress on Capitol Hill. But he alone as commander in chief may order troops into Iraq. & through his executive orders may de facto agree treaties with foreing powers. Though de jure he may only sign a treaty after consultation with & approval of Capitol Hill. This is why our recent history since the illegal war began - has seen so many "executive decisions". Guantanamo Delta Camp is one. The concept of "non legal combattant" is another. Most of the deals done with members of the coalition of the willing as "carrots" in return for their co-operation in legitimising the invasion were "executive decisions". And so too are the agreements in your name to co-operate with the CIA. If Bush doesn't have to report or justifiy his "E.D's" to Congress- then neither Ahern nor Mcdowell have to. & unsurprisingly - they didn't.

Finally to those many (oddly not only a few) who immediately say "We don't have a secret service" - oh dear. Haven't you noticed the "war on terror"? Are you telling us Ireland has no "secret service" at such a time of international fear & insecurity??? Surely it is time for wise TD's and Senators to suggest (since we don't have one officially) the creation of one. With an accountable named director - a delclared budget - timed release of its files and those files it will naturally inherit from the Garda since they won't need them anymore.

The ambition of Prionsais de Rossa and pals is quite astounding. I wonder do they even appreciate how much they're asking & where it could all lead. Well, they have a lever - and are looking for a fulcrum & there is a little crack in "an bunreacht" just waiting to be used.


we want to know how the CIA came to Shannon.

or in the usual doggy latin :- quid custodiet ipsos custodes - who guards your gardai? In case you hadn't noticed - a named neutral director can be useful. Jorge Descaller as head of the CNI in Spain was quite reliable after March 11th when he said it wasn't ETA. It was his job to know - Not his politics to blame. I suspect if Mcdowell had been Aznar's minister... "he would have gone on holidays".

by Iosaf Mon Feb 19, 2007 16:00

Ireland unique amongst the European Union states does not have an accountable and indepedent director of security services (meaning counter-terrorism, counter-espionage & your general secret service package).
This means no-one may be called to a Dail inquiry to answer questions, explain budget or assist in investigation of possible breaches of our laws, sovreignty or blaa blaa. Well "no-one" is not quite right.
They could always ask Mc Dowell could he take off the party political hat - forget he was and is a high level member of government and put on his other hat... the one we've never had reason to think he owns. Nor is there precedent for calling the Garda Commissioner without him first briefing and being briefed by his government superior... the minister of Justice.
In the event of evidence relating to rendition being stored or having been colated in another language (take for example urdu or arabic) it might also be useful to point out Ireland doesn't employ such interpreters and therefore (as I tire of pointing out) Out-sources this intelligence work to our nearest neighbours the British Hun who do it all and more at GCHQ Cheltenham. This "out-sourcing" is referred to as "friendly cooperation".
So yep. great idea. but unfortuanately the idea is a donkey behind a cart on an upward slant. There are several oversights in our national security apparatus & its accountability. Just one set of many flaws in "an bunreacht". It would (in me'umble opinion sirs & madams & assembled lizard types!) be better to push for those oversights to be addressed - as in notice them in an official way. & then legislate. After that it will be a doddle to call whomever you want without Mc dowell filtering it all first. You could have great sessions in the dail - who listened to Prionsais back when he had no silver hairs to his beard? stuff like that. Stuff which doesn't seem to happen. Because it is not in "our national security interest".