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Wearing of the poppy

category international | miscellaneous | feature author Tuesday November 24, 2009 17:25author by N.G.A. - National Graves Associationauthor email admin at nga dot ieauthor phone 087 2282033 Report this post to the editors

featured image

The view of the National Graves Association on the wearing of the poppy.


A Chara

The debate about whether or not to wear a British poppy in Ireland has once again engaged the general public.

The same arguments for and against are once again presented. The most cited argument in favour seems to be “Remember those Irishmen who perished in WW1”. The most cited against seems to be a belief that wearing a poppy in Ireland is an attack on those who support the concept of the Irish Nation State and an insult to those who died fighting for it. Many of these and other, controversial points can be laid to rest simply by reading some of the ample information on the wearing of the poppy provided by the Royal British Legion. They and they alone produce and distribute the poppy.

On the legions official website they state that virtually all of the survivors of WW1 are now deceased. They then go on to state that the poppy should be worn to support all the British Military Service Personal who served in all conflicts since 1945. The wearing of the Poppy is to honour ALL current and former British Soldiers, Sailors and Air Men in all conflicts. This is stressed again and again by the British Legion and repeated by British Politicians and commentators. To further emphasize this point the Legion dedicates the wearing of the poppy each year to serving soldiers. This year it is dedicated to those in Afghanistan and last year it was dedicated to “our heroes in Basra” . This means that wearing the Poppy in Ireland honours all the British Soldiers who committed all the atrocities in Ireland. You can not conveniently isolate the wearing of the Poppy in Ireland to WW1 and WW2. You can not simply ignore the fact that you are honouring the Black and Tans, the Murders of Bloody Sunday (both), the executioners of 1916 and so forth

Every year some media commentators tell us yet again that we should wear a poppy to remember the Irish soldiers who died in WW1. Indeed we should remember. We should remember that no Irish soldiers died in WW1. Unfortunately tens of thousands of British soldiers, recruited in Ireland did loose their young lives in that terrible conflict. We should also remember the many Irish soldiers who did die at the time of WW1. They died in Ireland, most died fighting the British army, some were executed, while some were simply murdered.

There was much publicity recently when the Grangemockler G.A.A. club in Tipperary held commemorative events dedicated to “our greatest son” Michael Hogan. The Hogan stand in Croke Park is named in honour of him. Michael Hogan was but one of the 14 civilians shot dead in Croke Park by British soldiers on November 21st 1920, an event that quickly became known as Bloody Sunday.

This year the G.A.A. celebrates its 125th anniversary a truly great achievement. The association has had to adapt and compete with the many codes of sports now so readily available to our youth. This weekend will see the Republic of Ireland team play France in Croke Park a week before the anniversary of Bloody Sunday. I am sure some people will pause on the night to remember. I hope they choose to remember the victims’ of Bloody Sunday especially the children, rather than the uniformed thugs who murdered them. “Lest we forget”

Is Mise

Sean Whelan (Chairperson)
National Graves Association
Box 7105
74 Dame Street
Dublin 2

author by -publication date Sat Nov 21, 2009 00:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The idea had been knocking around since 1926.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Poppy
http://www.whitepoppy.org.uk/

I have been encouraging people to wear purple opium poppies for smack & peace in its production zones for several years now. I even suggested that instead of hard to make purple opium poppy badges people could simply attach heroin wraps or even a syringe to their clothes for the remembrance season.

so there are alternatives. if you want to protest the red poppy of the british legion in a more meaningful way than simply choosing to leave your lapel or brooch space empty once a year - then you can wear a

white one for pacifism
or
purple one for afghani smack

up to you.
who knows!? you might get a conversation starter, filler and thus enjoy stimulating contact with a stranger because of your white or purple poppy. In other words - you'll be cool. & clever. A sexy combination no doubt.

author by Pete.publication date Sat Nov 21, 2009 01:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Grow up guys..

The Poppy is a mere flower.

.

author by Alecpublication date Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

C'mon Pete, in this case wearing the Poppy means to give support to the British Army
so, please, DO NOT wear the Poppy in Ireland.
Have you ever seen a British Lad wearing the Easter Lily ?

author by Ashling Gerepublication date Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Wear your Poppy with pride! Remember Amritsar, Kenya, Malaya, Bloody Sunday (both of them)!
See:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/89339

Also
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/remembrance/the-nation-...mbers :

"Remembrance Day and the Two Minute Silence have been observed since the end of the First World War, but their relevance remains undiminished. When we bow our heads in reflection, we remember those who fought for our freedom during the two World Wars. But we also mourn and honour those who have lost their lives in more recent conflicts. Today, with troops on duty in Iraq, Afghanistan and other trouble spots around the world, Remembrance, and this two minute tribute, are as important as ever."

"The National Service of Remembrance at the Cenotaph in Whitehall is a unique expression of national homage devoted to the remembrance of those who have given their lives in war. It was originally conceived as a commemoration of the war dead of the First World War but after the Second World War the scope of the ceremony was extended to focus on the nation's dead of both World Wars, and in 1980 it was widened once again to extend the remembrance to all who have suffered and died in conflict in the service of their country [Britain] and all those who mourn them. The service at the Cenotaph is framed to ensure that no-one is forgotten. The wreath laid by The Queen and the other tributes placed on the Cenotaph are dedicated to all who have suffered or died in war. Members of the Cabinet, Opposition Party leaders, former Prime Ministers and certain other Ministers and the Mayor of London are invited to attend the ceremony, along with representatives of the Armed Forces, Merchant Air and Navy and Fishing Fleets, and members of faith communities. High Commissioners from Commonwealth countries also attend the ceremony and lay wreaths at the Cenotaph."

author by Pat - Irish person who see's past the end of his nosepublication date Sat Nov 21, 2009 14:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In response to Pete, ‘’The Poppy is a mere flower‘’ I suppose you will tell us next that imperialism is just a word. Why would you say such a stupid thing like that.

Symbolism plays a big part in our society. The symbol of the Poppy is a Symbol imperialism. I would not mind if all symbols were excepted equally across the board but as we know that this is not the case.

Pete would you wear a mere Easter Lilly in memory of Ireland’s dead ? The Poppy commemorates the dead who died fighting for little Belgium. What about the dead who died fighting for little Ireland ?

author by ARpublication date Sun Nov 22, 2009 01:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"We should remember that no Irish soldiers died in WW1. Unfortunately tens of thousands of British soldiers, recruited in Ireland did loose their young lives in that terrible conflict. We should also remember the many Irish soldiers who did die at the time of WW1. They died in Ireland, most died fighting the British army, some were executed, while some were simply murdered."

I was with you until you made this ridiculous statement. The insurrectionaries of 1916 were not soldiers. Terrorists is a more apt term. Also, how dare you denigrate the brave Irishmen who went to fight in the first world war, many of whom were fighting in the hope that their sacrifice might further the cause of Home Rule, a cause that was betrayed by the 1916 leaders?

author by Ashling Gerepublication date Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"I was with you until you made this ridiculous statement. The insurrectionaries of 1916 were not soldiers. Terrorists is a more apt term. Also, how dare you denigrate the brave Irishmen who went to fight in the first world war, many of whom were fighting in the hope that their sacrifice might further the cause of Home Rule, a cause that was betrayed by the 1916 leaders?"

As John Redmond declared many times in the House of Commons, Ireland was held by force, not by consent. The British government received no electoral mandate in Ireland and did not even seek it. (In Britain, by the end of 1915 its electoral mandate from 1910 had expired, and it governed Britain, as well as Ireland, without a mandate.)

By April 1916 the insurrectionaries who had raised an Army (the UVF) against the elected government of Britain (which, in 1912, had an electoral mandate) were an increasingly dominant part of the unelected British government from which Irish Republicans declared independence. They proclaimed a Provisional Irish Government pending elections to be held in Ireland. It seems to me that the unelected power which laid waste to Dublin were the terrorists.

Most of the Irish people who signed up to kill Turks, Austrians, Hungarians, Germans who had never invaded or conquered Ireland, did so for pay. It was obvious to reasonable people that the suspension of the Home Rule Act and the domination of the new Coalition Government by the UVF meant that that those people who thought they could curry favour with Britain, and gain Home Rule by killing uninvolved third parties, were grievously deceived.

author by Fred Johnstonpublication date Sun Nov 22, 2009 15:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I would have had no problem wearing a poppy, had I been able to find one in Galway. There are some quite ridiculous statements made by 'Pete,' but that's to be expected on an open publishing forum. I had relatives on both sides of the family who fought proudly in both the First and Second war and all were Irishmen. I had relatives who fought in the Irish Civil War. I had a relative who was an Orangeman and a dyed-in-the-wool Lefty at the same time. All of these people were braver men in their manner than I.

author by raederpublication date Sun Nov 22, 2009 20:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The poppy is not sold to benefit those who fought in World War One. The poppy is sold by the Royal British Legion to benefit British soldiers who fought in more recent wars, including for instance those who killed civilians in Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan and many other places.

Don't get confused by the concentration here in Ireland on World War One. It's a con. This year the Royal British Legion put Afghanistan forward as the main item for their appeal. Of course, none of the money will go to Afghans, just those from Britain who have brought death and destruction to that country.

If you want to wear a poppy in Galway you could write to the Royal British Legion and they will send you one. They will happily send you a tin and a tray of poppies so you can sell them to other misguided people too if you like.

author by PoppyLovepublication date Sun Nov 22, 2009 21:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So the money you collect in your tin won't really do anything for him or his comrades. All it would do is help "externalise" the expenses of compensating ex soldiers from Iraq, Afghanistan etc who were "unpatriotic" enough to be shot but not to die. Don't you think governments have learned anything from corporate behaviour at all??

By wearing the poppy you help to support any recent imperialist military adventures that such sociopathic politicians choose to engage in. And sadly, it's obvious that all the things that the poor tommy or paddy thought he was battling in the awful hell of the trenches for, have been subsequently taken away from his children by their corrupt governments by strokes of the pen.

The poppy is truly the most cynical insult to the ideals of those who fought in the trenches

author by Roguepublication date Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I always give money to the Poppy Appeal but stopped wearing a poppy when I realised the fund was started up by "Butcher Haig", for many years his name was printed in the middle section.
That mans total disregard for the lives of his soldiers was staggering. I always got the feeling he started up the fund to try and ease is guilty concience.
A lot of the comments above are very interesting, and raise other issues that I must admit I hadn't put into the equasion before.
Needless to say I won't be wearing a poppy.

author by Fred Johnstonpublication date Mon Nov 23, 2009 14:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This antipoppy thing is very strange. We forget that it is not a handful of years ago since a young British Army soldier, born and raised in Ballyfermot, Dublin, was selected to be one of the Queen Mother's pall-bearers. Alas, he was killed not long afterwards in Iraq, as I recall. Remembering this does not make me a supporter of the illegal Bush/Blair invasion of Iraq. For many Irishmen up and through the 'Fifties and 'Sixties, joining the British Army was the only way out of poverty. We'd like to deny this, just as we'd like to deny that Irishmen, many from the Republic, continue to join the British Army. And presumably, as this corrupt and politically ruined country of ours continues to thwart the hopes of young people, many more will continue to join up.You think that in the dodgy days of the end of the 'Sixties in Belfast, young men from the Falls didn't join the Royal Navy or the Army? You're dreaming. I knew some of them. For me the poppy is a commemoration of the dead of all wars as well as those who fell in the Great War. One of the bigger allied war graves is at Gallipoli - established by Kemal Attaturk, who had been fighting the Allies on that very place.

author by D O Dpublication date Mon Nov 23, 2009 17:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This letter is spot on.

An Irishman who wears a poppy is supporting British imperialism. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either delusional or an apologist for the British Empire. This view of the Poppy as being an imperialist symbol in the Irish context by the way is also shared by people I know who served in British royal forces and REFUSE to wear the poppy.

author by pablopublication date Mon Nov 23, 2009 21:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

War is a commercial concern...nothing else. Soldiers are all mercenaries or labour under the delusion that they are fighting for justice, freedom, liberty, values or some other government label they send their youth off to foreign countries to kill indescriminately.
Centopath is nothing more than an annual event emotionally calling on the 'Golrious Dead' for some sick form of current justification for modern conflict. And the fools keep falling for it.
The human race is a laughable, naieve, ignorant ship of fools doomed to extinct itself while describing itself as 'intelligent'....

Wearing poppies is an indication of ignorance rather than patriotism or dedication to adore the dead...

author by norfolk enchantspublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 03:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well Fred, are you going to write to the Royal British Legion next year and ask for a tray of poppies to sell on Shop Street? Otherwise, if you're not, you're just acting the maggot on this thread, pretending you are too stupid to understand the implications of wearing a British colonial symbol in a former British colony.

So which is it Fred, are you trolling or are you genuinely going to get behind the Royal British Legion next year?

author by Johnpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 06:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The WWI was a world war that was initiated by the Imperialist War makers to divide the worlds resources amongst themselves. The Basle Agreement was held in Switzerland in 1912, and attended by the worlds socialists and their parties. The meeting disscussed what to do in case the Imperialist should unleash a war against the worlds peoples. They came up with the program of socialists must then take up the task of organizing against the wars of aggression to put and end to the Imperialist wars forever.
The First Canadian Division did just that and inside of that army the soldiers formed their own councils and practiced their own democray which included putting the British Officiers under arrest and along with the Saxons facing them in 1917, who had put the Prussian Officiers under arrest, met in 'No mans Land and disscussed how to end wars forever the quickest way. They came to the conclusion that the war machine and its manufactury must be dismantled and the democracy doubled so the women would be elected equally guaranteeing the Never Again quality of life necessary for the specie to continue inperpetutity. The monopoly over the English language by conservatives, does not record such a thing ever took place, but it did. And both the Officiers of the Prussian Army and the British Army moved against the soldiers after three days by annoucing to their soldiers at front that they 'Must Not Fratinize With the Enemy.' So the Canadians and Saxons got back in the line before they were shot on each side for the same order, and resumed their peace agreements as well as they could. It is for these soldiers, the 'voice of the voiceless' that I put on the Red Poppy year after year and use my voice to make sure they are heard. The only real and genuine victory is not to go on winning all wars of aggression, but to abolish the war machine and its manufactury and thusly to peace with technology that works in solidarity with life rather than destroying it . There is no victory in Nuclear Weapons wars for the pollution of radiation kills plants, animals, peoples, air, land, and water equally, and for thousands and millions of years. All life dies. That is not victory. The Imperialists threaten all the living world over and over again, and make money on selling the weapons of wars of aggression. They did that then and are doing it today. That is the big lie contiunuing. NO PASARAN !!

It is not true that there is no veterans from that war alive today. There is one veteran in Canada and he lives in Toronto. He remembers and believes that ending wars will bring true and real peace and liberation to the peoples. He is 106 years old last that I heard. It is for the purposes not of Imperialist war perpetuation that I wear the Red Poppy, but to remind everyone that we must end wars on the planet earth forever as the weapons are too evil and terrible. Liberation elects woman equally in peace and justice for all. That require doubling democracy by electing the polity of one man and one woman per constituency.

author by johnpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 08:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Symbolizing the Green Power movement and the end of all aggressive wars, perhaps the Irish people ought to wear the Green Shamrock instead for the Green Power movement that is currently comming into being and that the Irish people are friendly to and in appreciation of.

My wearing of the Red Poppy is in rememberence of the war to end all wars, that was fought by the soldiers councils minus the Officiers British or Prussian. To commemorate the voice of the voice less who fought and died to end the war machine and its manufactury and that all technology be put to use to work in solidarity with the living of the world, rather than destroyng it.

In fact there is a Canadian veteran who lives in Toronto and is 106 years old and is believing in the end of wars against the living world, including the peoples. There are reports that Eastern Europe has some survivers also. The Canadian First division was for ending all wars and thereby allowing the possibility for genuine freedom again. The Basle agreement of 1912 was the collective democracy of the socialist camp that said should imperialism impose a war of aggression on the worlds people it was the duty of socialists to organize against that war and put an end to its machinery of mass death.

My Red Poppy must therefore be for politically correct reasons and not at all for empire. My voice must honour those voices who have fallen silent on this world issue so future generations will know the truth of the meaning of freedom begins with the ending of war and its machinery and manufactury.

author by skippys friendpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The British Legion owns the poppy and they take the money collected to support the dependents of British soldiers killed in action and soldiers invalided out. They also declare that on their bloody website that the thing is to honour all those who serve or have served currently or historically, so it honours the "heroes of Basra" and "our gallant lads in Afghanistan" as much as anything else. Its' a pro war symbol and the ceremonies use to stir up British nationalism and reinforce the state. So cop yourself on.

author by Fred Johnstonpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As so often before, it doesn't surprise me that some people above with strident views hide behind their pseudonyms. Of course they do: wouldn't do for the neighbours to see their names. If there are poppies on sale next year I will certainly buy one. Now why don't y'all come, wearing your pointed hats and robes and stick a burning cross outside my door? Or maybe a nasty phone call? You mouth off about colonialism without giving a thought to the thousands of Irishmen who made their careers in the Imperial Civil Service, nor those who served in the Great War and believed in a United Ireland at the same time and saw no contradiction. Ireland's history has never been black and white, 'them' and 'us.' Kitchener, Montgomery, were both Irish; Kitchener was from Tipperary. I have been in a Spanish village where there's a monument erected to Irishmen who died there in the Civil War. The notion that Ireland's sons have never fought wars or that wearing a poppy is unpatriotic is ludicrous and defies history. Wasn't the great poet, Eoghan Rua O Suilluibháin, in the English Navy?

author by tomeilepublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 13:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It’s not their neighbours that people with strident views worry about Fred. If you were to wear a lily at Easter with as much pride as you wear the Empire poppy in November you would find out that the Special Branch would start to become concerned about you . The Ton-Ton Macoute are always on the look out for people with genuinely strident views. If you were to have such genuinely strident views you wouldn’t be getting any grants for your writer’s centre and you would certainly become a hate figure for your local press rather than a laughing stock. You would be monitored and quite possibly find donut eaters sitting outside your house in unmarked cars intimidating any neighbours who wanted to drop in for a cuppa . If you were to get that sort of treatment from republicans just because you wear your poppy with pride you might be a bit worried as well .

Yes the poet Eoghan Rua Suilluibháin was in the British navy after he was press-ganged into it.

author by man without pointed hatpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 14:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What does this

"you mouth off about colonialism without giving a thought to the thousands of Irishmen who made their careers in the Imperial Civil Service"

or this

"Kitchener, Montgomery, were both Irish; Kitchener was from Tipperary."

or especially this "I have been in a Spanish village where there's a monument erected to Irishmen who died there in the Civil War."

have to do with wearing the poppy?

Surely Johnson is not suggesting that we wear poppies to remember the Irish killed in the Spanish Civil War? It appears from what he's written that he is.

Am I missing something here?

And what is the view of Galway Alliance Against War on this? They presumably don't endorse his pro-poppy view?

author by Derek J. O'Connorpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 15:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mr Johnson,

If you have strong views that poppies should be worn in Ireland, why don't you sell them? You could have a little tray with a collecting tin in your writers center, and make announcements that poppies are on sale at all events in the run up to November 11th.

It would be straightforward and easy.

So why not?

author by gurgling jayzhuspublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 16:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Surely fashions have not reduced a man's jacket or a woman's broochspace or a trans-sexual or transvestite's loyalty display space to proudly wear a little symbol or ribbon for the dead you think worth remembering.

let's see........

* red poppy for soldiers in the british imperialist army.
* white poppy for everyone else killed and those soldiers who weren't imperialist but had to go.
* white feather for those pacifists who didn't go.
* red ribbon for everyone who has died or might die if they can't afford treatment from HIV/AIDS
* pink ribbon for everyone who has had or might have breast cancer
* mauve ribbon for everyone who has had or might have had cancer of the uterus
* blue ribbon for everyone else including those with no uterus who might have had or might just get cancer.
* purple opium poppy (as I suggested) for peace in Afghanistan
* easter lilly (pin on version) for all those who wore the green geansaí and died in1916
* easter lilly (stick on version) for all those who might have died in 1916 but didn't wear green geansaís.
* green carnation for all those who had nothing do with 1916 but got bad time for liking those of their own loincloth
* yellow star for all those who want to show affinity with the shoah
* pink triangle for all those who can't get into the green carnation but want to make a point
* black star for all those who are pretty sure they'd be amongst the minority of Irish men killed in the Spanish war (by which is meant not on the fascist side but on the republican side).
* jamaican flag for those who think Bob Marley was assassinated
* little clam for boston clam chowder for who those who think the Kennedy's were victims.
* black shamrock coz there are still bound to be a few of those lurking around the box of souvenirs
* little silver white dove to show you made your communion
* fainne to show you speak as gaeilge or even if you can't you've no problem being cornered in a pub and lectured on thierry henry as geailge.

........need i go on?

it seems many want to look like Rick from the Young Ones.
why don't they just put their political opinions on a t-shirt.


Or better still just get a photograph of your dead and carry it around every sunday like the mothers of plaza mayo and the disappeared did. Hey - come to think of it - they ended up doing badges and t-shirts too....

author by puzzledpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 19:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Can some one explain the picture that illustrates this article?

author by An Puca - Me Feinpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 19:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Can someone explain to me just how during WW1 : Irish independence (from Britain) was to be won in France, by killing Germans for the benifit of the British?

author by Jacqueline Fallonpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 19:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It is extremely unpatriotic for any Irish person to be going about wearing a symbol of British imperialism (the “Poppy“) - Irish people who wear the Poppy are traitors of nearly the highest order!

Mr Johnston seems to have no shame, it is bad enough that he champions the symbols of the British imperialist cause, but then he has the gall to admit he has a relative in the Orange Order - has Mr Johnston no shame at all! Jaysus, that’s like admitting you have a relative in the Ku Klux Klan and are proud of it! (given the close relations between the two sectarian/racist organisations).

The Poppy should be banned in Ireland and anyone wearing it denounced - it is a symbol of the enemy in Ireland (British imperialism), and a dreadful insult to all those patriots who fought bravely, suffered and died for a United Ireland and still continue to do so - to rid this country forever of British imperialist rule and all its symbols.

author by ImageAnalystpublication date Tue Nov 24, 2009 22:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Listen to "the final cut" by pink floyd. the first side is all about a soldier coming back from the war, his memories, his problems adjusting etc. The second side is largely about the warmongers and their betrayal of those who fight. It came out after the falklands war. Needless to say, it received mixed reviews. It's actually really cool though.

The picture is of a field of poppies, a soldier with a knife in his back and a canister of film.
He is looking over the poppy field and standing to attention. He is aware of the deaths of his fallen comrades, yet still believes in the ideal of serving in the army. He holds a film canister. That could represent the role of propaganda or the collusion of the media in stirring up people to join up or selling the war to the population so they support it. The knife in his back represents betrayal, be it from the government who sent him to war or the betrayal of his ideals of fighting for his country and somehow bringing peace. The cynical way war is used for political capital over the bodies of young men.

I think it's something along those lines anyway.

author by -publication date Wed Nov 25, 2009 09:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

err...

just one thing I'd like to add to that wonderful last analysis of the image.

the soldier in the illustration is (I believe from cut of hair and style of cap) a woman & thus not a he being stabbed in the back or holding a reel of film but a she .

author by paul o toolepublication date Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Interesting thread.
An argument for wearing poppies to remember the dead for so called 'justified war' might hold water if lessons were learned from those wars. The lessons learned are now swept aside in favour of the ignorace labelled as 'fighting for freedom' fighting for justice' fighting for liberty, fighting for honour, fighting to defend all these things...when in fact it is well known that war justified on these grounds does the opposite,
Unfortunately, reaching back to the past and past wars and the historical passionate volcano that erupts when you challenge that notion means that this ignorance will continnue....
Wear your poppies, keep burying your loved ones as they kill others, and sleep well in your stupidity believing that you sacrificed for freedom, liberty , blah, blah, blah....
When international law is respected and upheld..mabey id wear a poppie. If those responsible for breaking international law are in the dock...Bush, Blair, Obama, Aherne, Cowen, Harney, O'Rourke etc, I'll wear my birthday suit and wander arround dublin for a week. If they recieve the death sentence (or life) for their warcrimes ill dance till I die...for then there will be a reason to celebrate the dead soldiers...when those who send them to kill and die are held responsible.

author by tomeilepublication date Wed Nov 25, 2009 15:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thanks to the National Graves Association for this article .THe NGA is an Irish organization, but surely it's time for an international Remembrance Day for all those throughout the world killed by the British Empire . A cenotaph should be erected for the millions of victims.

author by Fred Johnstonpublication date Wed Nov 25, 2009 19:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Jacqueline Fallon" (what's in a name?) says I'm this and that and should be denounced and all the usual regressionist bunk because I would wish to wear a poppy. I don't feel any sense of shame being Irish, because to be Irish means that one almost certainly has varied history even in one's own line. Ms Fallon may be the only utterly provable true-blue Irish person. But if so, she's alone. Had it not been for Irish men sacrificing their lives in, say, the Second World War, we might all be speaking German by now and we wouldn't have many Jewish friends. A list for the extermination of the Jews, drawn up at Wannsee, included Ireland. Irishmen joined up with many other nationalities to defeat Hitler. No doubt Ms Fallon is young and regrets this. Patriotic Irishmen, such as the RAF Battle of Britain ace who was born in Dublin, were fighting for the freedom of many countries, including their own. That cannot happen, says Ms Fallon; fight only for us and for no-one else! Well, who ARE you? Norman-French, perhaps, Cromwellian, Elizabethan? 'Fallon' is most likely a derivative of the English, 'Fuller' which originally indicated a weaver or cloth-worker - oh drat! Jacqueline - you may be ENGLISH! The first recorded spelling of the 'Fallon' name is shown to be that of Anne Fallen (christening), dated March 14th 1565, St. Giles Cripplegate, London, during the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1. To be Irish is to be part of one's history and I am not ashamed of mine. Oh, and I'm sorry if this gives you a conniption, but one of my relatives fought with Michael Collins and indeed was quite close to him. So I will wear that poppy and you'll just have to make do with that chip on your shoulder.

author by JFpublication date Wed Nov 25, 2009 20:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Would you sell them Fred?

author by Jacqueline Fallonpublication date Wed Nov 25, 2009 22:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'Fallon' or more correctly O'Fallamhain, or in my case Ní Fhallamhain is an old Gaelic name, it's origins are in Galway/Roscommon (look up the phone book Fred for Galway/Roscommon and you'll see what I mean!). I know my family history very well, and can trace it beyond the famine. I have no English connections whatsoever, unfortunately, my ancestors were poor, so did not have the funds to travel - nothing much has changed there, I'm afraid! So, you can Fuck Off Fred with your English 'Fuller'!!

Also, my Grandfather Micheál O'Fallamhain/Michael Fallon and all his cousins and the majority of his friends and my Grandmother Fallon's family - some of whom were brutally killed by the British military army - were all involved in the War of Independence and with had their houses burnt to the ground by the British military. My grandfather's friends James Tormey and James Sloan from Moate were both shot dead at Ballyinkinlar Camp in front of him by a sentry in January 1921 - the same British imperialist army you want to defend!

I have no time for any Irish person celebrating the British imperialist army.

author by Tom Cooper - Irish National Congresspublication date Wed Nov 25, 2009 22:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Even though it is almost 90 years since the British militarily disengaged from most of Ireland, the propaganda war continues unabated. This was clearly signalled by Sean Whelan's excellent contribution. Prior to Irish independence the British controlled the masses by means of intimidation, bribery and terror. Following independence this was no longer possible so it was replaced by propaganda, revisionism, and more recently by slick PR and spin. The power of this propaganda has borne fruit for revisionists. One just has to look at the level of Irish state involvement on Armistice Day.

Calls for us in Ireland to honour our dead of the Somme, just as we honour the insurgents of 1916, is both insulting and demeaning to the memory of those who stayed home to fight for the right of this small nation. How quickly it was forgotten that the soldiers who ruthlessly suppressed the Easter Rising and perpetrated atrocities during the War of Independence against those who dared to assert their own national identity, wore similar uniforms to the soldiers some are suggesting should be similarly honoured.

For many years, there has been an insidious and persistent campaign aimed at forcing the full participation of the Irish State in the annual Remembrance Sunday ceremonies of the Royal British legion. Every November we see contrived controversy generated designed to embarrass the government of the day. Irish society in the south has been repeatedly accused of failing to honour the memory of the 35,000 Irish in British uniform who were slaughtered in the so-called Great War of 1914-1918. This effort at conferring a new respectability upon the British Army in Ireland under the guise of honouring the Irish war dead should be opposed.

Why should the Irish state allow itself to become progressively more involved with the ceremonial of a quasi-military organisation that promotes British patriotic nationalism and identification with the British imperial military tradition? Do our politicians not realise that monies raised in Ireland from poppy selling is used to look after the welfare of serving British soldiers including convicted murders like Ian Thain, Lee Clegg, Mark Wright and James Fisher, all of whom were convicted of the murders of Irish citizen in this country and all still serving in Her Majesty's forces. Have we no shame.

Why is our National Day of Commemoration, which remembers the barbarism inflicted on our great-grandparents generation with formidable dignity, not sufficient for these revisionists? The sacrifice of those who gave their lives in such an appalling conflict, which was more about colonial designs on Africa than the freedoms of small nations, is being used most cynically by those who espouse the restoration of formal links with the crown. The memory of those who were mass-murdered in such an inglorious, inter-imperialist conflict should be protected from these political opportunists.

The Irish State and Irish Defence Forces should have no dealings with the Royal British legion other than at the National Day of Commemoration. This will ensure at least that protocol and ceremonial are controlled by the sovereign Irish State, thereby ensuring that Ireland does not appear as some sort of devolved British colonial administration.

author by The Sense Policepublication date Thu Nov 26, 2009 00:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There seems to be a big contradiction between what Fred Johnson is saying on this thread and what he's saying on the IAWM website No?

Related Link: http://irishantiwar.org/node/545
author by Fred Johnstonpublication date Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I can't rewrite history, Jacqueline. The wearing of the poppy is no shame. The wearing of the Easter Lilly is no shame. They are not mutually exclusive. Especially on this island.

author by Patriotpublication date Fri Nov 27, 2009 19:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I had thought such ridiculous opposition to wearing a poppy was dying out in this country, but clearly I am to be disappointed. So a question for those who would turn the clock back 90 years - where is YOUR patriotism now that our country is under threat from within? Have you demonstrated or written to your TDs demanding the arrest and interrogation, and seizing of all assets, of the rogue bankers who betrayed this State? Have you picketed Anglo-Irish Bank? You who scream because a man wants to wear a poppy will be forking out to pay the debts of greedy, foul, treacherous Irishmen who sold their country's economy out of greed and whom the banana republic government are propping up: not one will ever see prison. So if you want to be worthy of your Easter Lilly, put pen to paper, see your TD, see justice done even if you have to embarrass this shower into delivering it. Otherwise lie down and take a good pounding from your own and think of Ireland and a Nation Once Again! Let Irishmen wear the poppy if they like, it's a free country - or have you forgotten that a free nation is what they fought for at Easter 1916? Now do your patriotic duty and make the government put on trial the people who have truly betrayed Ireland, and who are making you pay their debts for them while the eat in good restaurants and play golf.

author by Marta - The Lilliespublication date Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I fully agree with above post by Tom Cooper. The historical revisionist and columnist are constantly distorting our history and culture. We have seen an increase in this historical rape in recent years because its generally accepted that Ireland and England are no longer at war.

I find it hard to understand why so many Irish people are so thick when it come to their own history. Every time a debate comes up about the poppy or the events of 1916 we seem to have a steady stream of Irish people who lash the patriot dead of Easter Week by calling them terrorist etc.

I have seen 4th of July celebrations parties taking place in some parts of Dublin over the years. These parties seem to go down well in places like Dun Laoghaire without any need for historical analysis or questions of weather it was right or wrong. I could not picture the citizens of the US getting into a debate about commemorating their war of independence. It’s seems to be more is straight forward across the water. They beat the land grabbing British through armed conflict and gained their independence. People in the US don’t have an issue with independence celebrations such as 4th of July.

The reason why we have a problem here is because we have an army of ‘West Brits’ planted firmly into the soil. These people mainly live along the East coast of Ireland. They work their poison pens to great effect and do so on a regular basis.

Most people in this country would agree that the Black and Tans were a bunch of murdering thugs who sole purpose for being here was to terrorise the risen Irish people into submission. I was amazed to see the pro British lie machine swing into overtime after the release of the film ’The wind that shakes the barley’. The revisionist tried to convince people that the Black and Tans weren’t that bad.

These people who twist and distort our history are relentless in their work. Its fairly obvious that they have been relatively successful to a point. For the simple fact that events such as 1916, or the fight against the Black and Tans is even debated is a measure of their success.

My guess is that it is only a matter of time before you see Irish people wearing poppies. We are moving in that direction all the time. You only have to look at Issues like Tara to gauge our interest in what we see as important or relevant.

For the fact that Tara was lost says something about us, generally we don’t care about Irish history anymore. It could have been different though. Tara valley could have been won if the will to do so was there (in the Irish media). Issues like Tara and Rossport are won through the media. The issue of the poppy will eventually be won through the media.

They are working on it at present, it might take a few years year’s but in the end you will see Irish people walking down O’Connell St wearing poppies. Unfortunately we are losing our identity and direction. People like columnist Mary Kenny are working behind the scenes and through the media to make us more appreciative of the British Monarchy and all thing associated with it . She is trying to bestow on us the joy and happiness that goes with admiring the royal family. She is pushing for a visit of the queen here next year to coincide with the last official royal visit 100 years ago. She was interviewed on TV 3’s Breakfast show a few weeks ago. She thinks that an official visit from the Queen here would be good for the spirit of Dublin people who are feeling down because of the recession. She says that what we need is some pomp and ceremony to cheer us up.

I have to admit that I have not worn an Easter Lilly for a few years having become disillusioned with the whole question of Irish unity and remembrance.

I have tried to walk away from Irish republican politics because it only drags ye down and leaves you felling empty. I was succeeding to a degree but now find that my blood is starting to boil again. Its not enough that they beat us, now we are being force fed this imperialist bullshite. This is nose rubbing at it best. I still have my Easter Lilly, its stored away in a small box. Although I have not worn it in years it will be on my jacket next Easter.

PS. Wearing the poppy commemorates all those killed in the British Military Services, this includes the murderous Black and Tans.

author by Ciaron - Catholic Workerpublication date Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Like wearing the poppy, ANZAC DaY may also have begun by returning Australian troops treated badly by the state that had exploited them in war - but it has long been co-opted to recruit for more recent ventures in Afghanistan and Iraq. Wearing the red poppy has become a modern loyalty oath on British television and it is always interesting to see which football coaches refuse to wear one. members of the military are of course the minority of fatalities in modern warfare.

Also interesting to see this recent adbusting campaign in Engand..................

LINK - MILITARY ADBUSTING IN ENGLAND - Bring'em Home!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/440341.html

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/440341.html
author by Sean O'Cathasaighpublication date Sat Dec 19, 2009 20:44author address author phone 07895808297Report this post to the editors

As I am in Irishman born in England that curious thing, I can only agree with the ''Do not wear the Poppy'' section. The poppy is a symbol founded by ''the Haig foundation'', brainchild of the the incompetent buffoon who sent a generation of Irishmen and Commonwealth troops to their dooms on the slopes of Thiepval in 1916.
I have been to Thiepval. The slope is difficult to ascend on foot, unladen. I tried it. The journey with 57lb of gear on you back made you an easy target for machine guns. A lot of Home Rulers were in the ranks. Cycnics have said they were given this spot to attack to permanently silence Home Rule.
There may be some truth in that.
Money wasn't the issue for a lot of these men. They thought by defendng Belgian neutrality, they would be forging a stronger hand for Ireland, War fever gripped Ireland as much as any other place in the early days. The rationale at large was temporarily put to bed. By the time most men had got into uniform, and realised they had been conned, they were on their way to France. REading of the Dublin rising and the aftermath, news from home, no doubt many of them felt they should have been at home. The cemeteries of the area, Connaught, Ulster Tower, Munster Copse, bear witness to the deeds of the first day of the battle.
They should not be forgotten, Sean Lemass even said so, even though he hadfought against the British army on the streets of Dublin.
The Shamrock would be a much better idea, I would wear it, with the revenue going to soldiers of present day Ireland who are fighting in foreign areas, and for their benefit if they are wounded or crippled. I thin kthe dead would all agree with that,. The shamrock could also be a memorial for Easter rising and the scores of young Irishmen who died defending their country after WW1.

author by Serial Mailerpublication date Sun Dec 20, 2009 09:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Money wasn't the issue for a lot of these men. They thought by defendng Belgian neutrality, they would be forging a stronger hand for Ireland, War fever gripped Ireland as much as any other place in the early days. The rationale at large was temporarily put to bed."

The trouble with commemorating soldiers, as soldiers, is that it gives credence to the interests which were advanced by their soldiering, and it gives present-day credibility to those interests.

Soldiers are people who have licence to kill. That is a very serious thing, and there has to be a very good reason why we should give anyone such a licence, or why we should give retrospective approval to their killing activities by official commemoration. (I'm not talking about personal and family memory.)

Heroism has nothing to do with it. Hitler's soldiers in Stalingrad were heroes, in that they fought bravely. No doubt "the rationale at large was temporarily put to bed," and many of them fought heroically in solidarity with their comrades. Does that mean that their German fellow-countrymen would now be justified in endorsing their "gallantry" by official commemoration of Hitler's soldiers in Stalingrad?

We can be reasonably sure that, for many of Hitler's soldiers "the rationale at large was temporarily put to bed.". Hitler himself said his purpose in conquering large tracts of the world was to emulate the British Empire. The Irish people who were tricked into Britain's armies in 1914 were advancing a cause just as bloody, cruel and inhuman as Hitler's. They should be remembered but not commemorated, not as heroes but as tragic victims duped into serving an evil cause.

author by Feudal castratopublication date Sun Dec 20, 2009 22:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

well said. I'm glad somebody finally put that particular little bit of sophistry to bed.
Perhaps you could say something equally succinct and irrefutable about that other sophist trick statement which always comes up on war threads: "support our troops"?

author by pat cpublication date Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Wear a Poppy.

Wear a White Poppy to remember all of the war dead. I wear a White Poppy to remember my two Grand Uncles who died in France. I also wear to remember all of the German, Russian, Austran, French, Czech, and the others who fell.

The debate is relevant today as well. When a British soldier is killed in Iraq or Afghanistan I take no pleasure from it. There goes another economic conscript or someone fooled into thinking they were fighting for democracy. The only time I didn't take this attitude was when a senior officer in British Military Intelligence was killed in Iraq.

Those who are responsible for those deaths and for the deaths of countless more civilians (who get no headlines or coffins draped with flags) are the corrupt politicians like Gordon brown who invented reasons for invading these countries. I still cannot understand why they didn'y invade Saudi Arabia, thats where the 9/11 hijackers came from.

author by Daithi Opublication date Wed Dec 23, 2009 14:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

My great-grandad fought in WW1 and the War of Independence wore a poppy and a lily together on remembrance day, and just the lily at easter. Many of his Irish friends did the same.

author by Justin Morahanpublication date Mon Nov 11, 2013 17:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No poppy or Easter lily for me.

I can't see why there are commemorations for those who die in war (the presumption seems to be that they all died honourably on behalf of the rest of us).

There are no such grandiose commemorations for those who live and work peacefully and die in their beds or with their work boots on. The latter don't need commemorations. Neither does the former group. Seems to me our warmongering masters want them because they fear that, without such commemorations, at their next blood-letting no-one would turn up.

Dress war up in rags and there may not be many takers. Surround it with flags, bands, colour, pageantry,, rousing songs and bugles to stir young souls - and the mad blood-fests will go on and on and on.

"Did you really believe them when they told you "The Cause?"
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again."

author by Dubpublication date Mon Nov 11, 2013 20:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So Irish people who wear a poppy should be berated over their choice.

Many of those Irishmen who served in the Great War returned home to fight in the War of Independence, Tom Barry, Erskine Childers, Martin Doyle VC MM, to name but three of those many.

Yet their service and the service of others in the Great War is conveniently whitewashed out to suit certain history's.

The Easter lily was originally to my knowledge lin remembrance of the Easter Rising ( two if the leaders of which, Connolly & Mallin had served in the British Army, yet it now commemorates members of an organisation which murdered Jean McConville, Charlie Armstrong and hundreds of other innocent civilians including children. What was or is the money gathered from the Lily sales used for? Perhaps someone might enlighten me as to when the lily was actually first used with regards to the Rising.

So if a free and democratic Ireland is what is espoused, that allows all citizens of the country to remember and commemorate as they see fit.

Wear your lily as you see fit, it's your right and I will wear a poppy as I see fit this is also my right, in a democracy; unless there is a different view of democracy amongst the posters here.

author by Sassoonpublication date Tue Nov 12, 2013 00:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What WERE they fighting for?
Germany still rules us financially. It used banks instead of tanks.
The fascist US police state tracks our every move, reads our email, follows our every movement, and no doubt uses the information gleaned to blackmail government leaders into silence or compliance.
The Irish bureaucracy says "show us your papers" at every turn.
Water charges, property charges, cuts to healthcare, mortgage slavery, jobsbridge. Democratic protesters are beaten up at will or disappeared in the dead of night by black clad police. Our resources are given away to corporations, our water tainted by frackers, our food by pesticides and GMO's , and corporations will sue us for profits they might have made when this new TAFTA goes through without a murmur. Our media is complicit and silent on crucial matters and feeds us a diet of stupefying soaps and football.

Every social gain made after WII has been clawed back by the neo cons and their financial terrorists.
Corporate wars are executed by the fascist US, and non compliant countries are overturned into chaos by religious fanatic mercenaries. meanwhile they refuel at our airport like it was some glorified aircraft carrier. We waive the fees. Drones fill the skies and slaughter nameless brown people and their children.

Wars, all wars are pointless. The cycle repeats. The deaths end up being for nothing.
We should not glorify wars. Being cannon fodder is not glorious. We should know better than to fall for this glorification of war, this sickening propaganda, or the propaganda they pay to insert into hollywood films, or Xbox video games for young boys. War is ugly murder. Soldiers are nothing but paid killers. Just half the poor being paid to kill the other half to protect the riches of their real class enemies. The rich get us to pay the cost of oppressing ourselves and protecting their money from us. Nazi Germany needed soldiers to join up. If they didn't there would be no war. Just hitler shouting to himself. What made them join up?? Being paid from the people's own tax money, and the notion that it was a glorious and patriotic thing to do to join the army. Poppy day is part of that same process. The poppy externalises the cost of current wars and helps make them possible. We never learn.

author by Dave - DOCpublication date Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

For Glory

And each of them, who came from afar
To fight here in this bloody awful war
To die in trenches, washed in hero’s blood
The men and women who sacrificed, for the common good.

Remember them today, on the eleventh hour
And wear with pride the blood red flower
Poppy that rose from each forgotten grave
To mark for us, the resting place of the brave.

© Dave Kavanagh @ daithiocaomanaigh.com

Related Link: http://daithiocaomanaigh.com/
author by poetry criticpublication date Fri Nov 13, 2015 13:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

that poem is a perfect example of the kind of guff used throughout the decades to glorify war
and encourage another generation of young men to throw away their lives as cannon fodder to protect
the property and assets of cynical sociopathic old men.
WWI was a war for empire, a useless slaughter in the mud.
A waste of vast swathes of young human potential

author by Poppygirlpublication date Wed Nov 15, 2017 21:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I read in the main article that 'no Irish fought in the first world war' - what a lot of hogwash - where was this person educated? Possibly he/she was educated in the Irish system of history that virtually removed all information concerning WW1 from Irish history books. For enlightenment and full information I suggest the author follows this link and reads the information therein. https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Historical_Information..._War/

I appreciate that this item was published several years ago, hopefully, people have lightened up since then and recognise that wearing a poppy signifies remembering all of those killed in a conflict of war.... it just so happens that the British Legion is the organisation who backs this yearly event. I see there is now an Irish Legion..... Hurray. When I was a kid, there were quite a few cottages for veterans of both wars, and these people were supported by the British Legion and received financial and otherwise support as a result of the BL

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94848?userlanguage=ga
author by fredpublication date Thu Nov 16, 2017 03:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

the article did not actually say no Irish people died in WWI

He was saying that those that DID die were not acting as irish soldiers but as british soldiers.

Do read it again more carefully poppy

Frankly I see your own comment as nothing but a thinly veiled bit of propaganda for imperialist wars.

"Ah shure it was a long time ago. Shure aren't the british legion nice lads
and isn't wearing the poppy harmless really"

NO. By buying and wearing a poppy, you are financially and morally supporting current and future wars
and insulting the memory of the poor unfortunates, both british and irish who were used
as cannon fodder in past wars and will be similarly used in future wars.

author by Botanist - Nonepublication date Thu Nov 16, 2017 09:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

“We should remember that no Irish soldiers died in WW1.”?

Check their wills their nationality is shown as “”Irish”.

They served believing they were serving Ireland.

Francis Ledgewidge stated

“I joined the British Army because she stood between Ireland and an enemy common to our civilization, and I would not have her (Britain) say that she defended us while we did nothing at home but pass resolutions.”

He served as an Irish Soldier in the British Army.

Even Pearse gives these men grudging respect in what has to be one of the strangest justifications for War. “Such august homage was never before offered to God as this” “Love of country”

‘The last sixteen months have been the most glorious in the history of Europe. Heroism has come back to the earth. On whichever side the men who rule the peoples have marshalled them, whether with England to uphold her tyranny of the seas, or with Germany to break that tyranny, the people themselves have gone into battle because to each the old voice that speaks of the soil of a nation has spoken anew. It is good for the world that such things should be done. The old heart of the earth needs to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefields. Such august homage was never before offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives gladly given for love of country.’

Nice post Poppy

Lest we forget

author by fredpublication date Sat Nov 18, 2017 23:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Indeed we should remember. We should remember that no Irish soldiers died in WW1. Unfortunately tens of thousands of British soldiers, recruited in Ireland did loose their young lives in that terrible conflict.


You are just a troll. It is clear what the author is saying from the above. He's not denying irish people died. He's just disowning them for their poor choice in joining the army of the enemy at a time when Ireland itself needed them

He's not denying there were deaths. He's just saying they were not Irish soldiers once they joined the british army. they were british soldiers fighting for the aims of britain. Irish soldiers were the ones fighting the british at home here in Ireland.

Ledwidge was a misguided fool and Sadly Pearse had a tendency to be a bit of an overly melodramatic romantic loon sometimes. Which meant that he gave scum like you a few useful propaganda quotes to misuse.

I'd prefer to read quotes from James Connolly.
He knew what was really going on.

And after all the wars for freedom, for the majority, as Connolly indicated, we are still enslaved and only the accents of the landlords have changed. We are currently living in an age of capitalism gone mad and one of creeping fascism. anyway. And one wonders what of the freedoms people fought for in WWII are actually still left

Now, our fascistic lords and masters now have the ultimate conduit for lies and propaganda (i.e. the internet) and a legion of minions like yourself to use it for them. And they still need their cannon fodder for more wars, And, as is always their way, they would prefer the great unwashed pay for their own oppression and subsidise the broken and mangled soldiers coming home from them, through initiatives like poppy day.

Can't have all those lovely tax breaks for the rich being stopped to pay for rehabilitation and pensions for the no longer useful cannon fodder that unfortunately dares to survive and comes home expecting help.

So these costs are externalised on a gullible public cowed into a misguided patriotism
through propaganda programs like poppy day

Only a fool would support this.

author by Botanist - Nonepublication date Sat Nov 18, 2017 23:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Your reversion to puerile insult is laughable.

You sir are the one who is the troll by your reaction.

Connolly knew what was going on?

Is that why he said the British Army wouldn’t use srtillery?

Is that why he and other leaders allowed a hospital to be taken by the rebels as a strong point?

“In later years, it was common, and I was guilty in this respect, to question the motives of those who joined the new British armies at the outbreak of the Great War, but it must, in their honour and fairness to their memories, be said that they were motivated by the highest purpose, and died in their tens of thousands in Flanders and Gallipoli, believing that they were giving their lives in the cause of human liberty everywhere, including Ireland.”

Sean Lemass.

You have a nice weekend.

author by fredpublication date Sun Nov 19, 2017 03:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

More misrepresentation. My comment in relation to Connolly was regarding his understanding of the predatory nature of capitalism and that armed resistance without political reform only changes the accents of the landlords. Not his ability to command on the battlefield. where of course he was merely just an amateur.

Your pathetic attempt to misread the authors text for propaganda purposes was risible
and undeserving of more than puerile insult sir.

Your kind are the lowest of the low, drumming up patriotism to subsidise new wars
and trick impressionable young people into foolishly signing up as cannon fodder for them

But despite your tacit support for all this, I sincerely doubt we will see the likes of YOUR children
on the front lines of the latest war for profit.

I hope your weekend is as unpleasant as that of one of the multitude of maimed victims
in Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan or one of the many other wars
that the UK is currently up to their necks in fomenting,
the human fallout from which will be subsidised by sales of the poppy
thus making those wars cheaper for the government to engage in.

author by Botanistpublication date Sun Nov 19, 2017 09:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thank, you Fred for your response.

I was aware of what you were trying to imply about Connolly’ awareness, my point was as a former British Soldier he was negligent in tactical knowledge.

The author of the original thread also stated;

“We should also remember the many Irish soldiers who did die at the time of WW1. They died in Ireland, most died fighting the British army, some were executed, while some were simply murdered.”

What about the innocent civilians that died during Easter week because they wouldn’t allow the rebels to commandeer their cars (a car owner shot dead on stephen’s green) or the innocent patients that died because rebels took over the South Dublin Union (an act which breached the laws of armed conflict) or the nurse who died while trying to protect them? There are many more incident.

It’s interesting that Connolly and the other leaders sided with an imperial power who had invade Belgium and other countries. Some of these same leaders were even playing with the idea of placing one of the Kaiser’s sons on the “Irish throne” if Germany had been victorious.

Despite your continued attempts at puerile insult and the self evident fact that you dislike opposing opinions, i hope you have a nice weekend (what remains of it).

author by fredpublication date Mon Nov 20, 2017 01:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Shakespeare once wrote:

"A man can smile and smile and be a villain".

I think it applies to folks like you feigning politeness while effectively acting
as a one sided propagandist an apologist for the crimes of imperialism.
So you'll forgive me if I ignore your feigned politeness.

The first world war was a pointless slaughter in the mud for empire.

Our 1916 rebels had some innocent blood on their hands sure. All sides in all wars do. Revolution is a messy and unfair business. Once it starts, innocents inevitably get caught up in the mess. But compare these errors of an amateur higgledy piggeldy rebel army with the cruel actions of a much larger and supposedly professional army of Britain in the occupied country of Ireland (and indeed in many other countries across the world) over a period of many years; actions such as the many deliberate murders and violent acts on innocents by the black and tans; and those failures of the 1916 rebels really pale into insignificance and fall into context. A context that you are deliberately masking and distorting.

Lenin advocated temporary opportunistic strategic support for "the enemy of my enemy" and no doubt a few ill advised statements were intended along such lines. At the time the British were a hated enemy and anyone attacking this hated enemy were doing us a favour in Leninist terms. However all these were merely words spoken in the heat of conflict. The rebels did not actually join up and fight with the army of the Germans did they?

Sly propagandists are often VERY selective in their portrayal of history for their own narrow ends. They only blame and condemn a few poorly armed rebels fighting against the might of the British empire. But the empire itself? Not so much!.

Because in the book of imperialist propaganda techniques, apparently only those people daring to bravely put their lives on the line to rebel against the brutality of empire are expected to be angels.

Apparently their every act must always be perfect in every way or else they are immediately on the receiving end of scathing attacks for even the tiniest imperfection which, apparently, in the eyes of their detractors, negates any and all moral high ground they may have for daring to rebel against a brutal colonial power.

Meanwhile safely ignored by the same propagandists, who only seem to target the imperfections of lowly rebels, not the many obvious heinous and deliberate crimes of the occupier, the British army itself can happily slaughter, murder, torture, execute with impunity. All across the known world at the time. And indeed they did.

Such has been the sycophantic behaviour of propagandists throughout history, and this continues to be the case today across the internet and throughout mainstream media unfortunately,

These mercenary Irishmen you wish us all to honour, voluntarily joined the British army for pay. And it is these same British mercenaries you wish us now to build monuments for, to get all patriotic over and tear up over once a year over, and most importantly, to hold up as great heroes on front of our impressionable children (those potential future recruits), and, overcome by this "patriotism", to reach into our pocket once a year to buy poppies to help externalise the expensive care of the human fallout of current British wars hence lowering the "cost of entry" of such wars for the current British government.( And it's fair to say that they certainly have their finger in a few of those war pies currently!)

Your sly little smear tactics fool nobody here my "friend", We've seen your sort time and again.

So go sell your poppies, your sly rhetoric, your apologies for empire and war, elsewhere where they are more gullible.

The men of 1916 were brave if flawed men who voluntarily fought to liberate us from British occupation.
You will not succeed in besmirching them or comparing them with a bunch of mercenaries or misguided economic conscripts for empire

As I believe the author was essentially saying, voluntarily joining the rebellion and fighting the brutal occupiers of our country is a very different endeavour from that of the men who signed up to the army of the very occupiers of our country for pay, as cannon fodder to be used by empire in what was yet another pointless imperial war.

author by Botanist - Nonepublication date Mon Nov 20, 2017 06:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You speak of one sided propagandists while freely spouting your own propaganda and immediately insulting those who dare to differ from your propaganda.

“They joined for pay” has long been discounted as propaganda.

Were the rebels brave men and women? Yes but no more brave than those who enlisted for what they believed in. How many of those rebels actually realized that they were going out for a rising and not just another manouevre? You should check the bureau of military history records to answer this question, you might get be very surprised.

Once again -

““In later years, it was common, and I was guilty in this respect, to question the motives of those who joined the new British armies at the outbreak of the Great War, but it must, in their honour and fairness to their memories, be said that they were motivated by the highest purpose, and died in their tens of thousands in Flanders and Gallipoli, believing that they were giving their lives in the cause of human liberty everywhere, including Ireland.”

Sean Lemass 1966

I, and others, are not asking you to wear a poppy it’s your right not to do so if you choose. It is also the right of those who wish to wear one to do so. If Irish families wish to remember ancestors who died during WWI who are you to castigate and deride them?

What was in the proclamation “To cherish all the children of the nation equally”

James Connolly when asked would he “pray for the men who were about to shoot him” reputedly responded “I will pray for any man who bravely does his duty.”

I genuinely hope you have a nice week.

author by Botanistpublication date Mon Nov 20, 2017 06:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

“The rebels did not actually join up and fight with the army of the Germans did they?

Sly propagandists are often VERY selective in their portrayal of history for their own narrow ends.”

Your selective selections are noted. Have you read of Casement’s failed attempt to form an Irish Brigade from Irish POWs? Those he did manage to recruit actually did join the German Army. Or the ship full of German weapons which was supposed support the rising (the Aud). Remember Pearse was going around the GPO telling all in ear shot that the Germans had landed in Ireland.

Remember the “gallant allies in Europe” had walked all over Belgium, and despite promises to the contrary were never going to allow her freedom if they (the Germans) had been victorious. What price Lenin’s words now?

Have a nice week.

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